Because he fought alongside the French resistance during World War II, Captain America is cheesed off about surrender monkeys and other anti-French rhetoric.
From Captain America 3, March 2005:
Why does Captain America hate America?
First Andrew Sullivan...now Captain America? Dear Lord!
It Gauls him, eh?
Damn, Cap must be getting a little old to be kicking ass on terrorists and such. I think he is complaining cuz he a crotchety old man.
You might read some actual history - and learn just how little resistance there was in France, and how much collaboration (they cooperated with the Holocaust cheerfully - enthusiastically, even).
In contrast to the Dutch and the Danes, who actively tried to save Jews.
The French resistance was small, and it's larger than life memory is a creation of the postwar government (De Gaulle, primarily).
Or heck, just take Stan Lee's word for it instead.
The Cap doesn't hate AMERICA.
What he hates is MURKA....and the ignorant, xenophobic, stupid people who control it right now!
Stupid people piss him off.
You might read some actual history - and learn just how little resistance there was in France
James: Regnery's Real, Genuine History of the Smelly Frogs by Ann Coulter and Jonah Goldberg doesn't qualify. And the Maquis in particular gets a rough deal out of many historical accounts because of its Marxist leanings.
Lee could have chosen many other examples, of course: say, Verdun. And I do remember George Will's pompous assertion that the French had never defended Paris, which is more than refuted by photographs of those maintaining the siege in 1870, who resorted to eating the animals in the zoo.
Ah well. Ignorance has a thousand flowers.
Your point is taken, but oversimplified. De Gaulle actually did his best to whitewash the resistance, which was composed in large part by his rivals, the French Communists. Many of these Communists were Jewish. Thus, by denying the existence of a resistance, you not only attack Gaulist propaganda, you also unintentionally ratify its anti-semitic tendencies.
You might read about how France lost close to two million soldiers in WW1, and nearly that many civilians. But surrender monkeys is so funny a slander, let's just apply it to all French people everywhere (esp. the ones who were right about Iraq's weapons programs -- grrr!)
And just because Captain America hates "French Fried Republicans" doesn't mean he's a hippie. We all know Cap tried to join the army in WWII but was 4-F, and he took a strange serum to get in. Imagine one of the LGFers taking such risks.
Furthermore, Cap is pro business. We know he won't help you if you lose you Visa Check card.
It must be so easy to believe what you hear on Rush - and I'm talking to you James Robertson. My French Jewish relatives are alive today because French Catholics hid them in their homes at risk to their own lives.
Sometimes I really hate Americans.
Overall, the Dutch record of collaboration was one of the worst in Europe, pace "A Solider of Orange".
I had a post with this info on a games forum around the start of the Iraq war. Here's the relevant stuff about French "lack of courage":
Look at both World Wars. The French couldn't fight as long in WW2 as they did in WW1, that's for sure. They still lost 100,000 men before they were defeated, and more than 200,000 by the end of the war. Why not more? Because they didn't have them -- do you have the foggiest idea what their army did in WW1? The French fought incredibly hard for years and lost 1,400,000 soldiers. The US lost about 126,000 in WW1 and 400,000 in WW2.
additional info: in WW1, France had 11% of their entire population killed or wounded; for the the US it was 0.37%. Casualties (killed, wounded, or missing in action) as a percentage of those mobilized 76% for France (and Russia), 36% for Britain, and 8.2% for the US.
As Molly Ivins has pointed out, after the French defeat in WW2, "For eighteen months after that execrable defeat, the United States of America continued to have cordial diplomatic relations with Nazi Germany." (Ford and others -- including both of Bush's grandfathers BTW, continued to trade with the Nazis even after the US joined the war.) Which country behaved well there?
Looking for someone to call a wimp in both World Wars -- some people would say a candidate would be the country that entered the first WW 3 years after it started and the second WW 2 years after it started. Personally I wouldn't say that made them wimps, but it makes far more sense than using that word to describe the French. You know the country in question, or you should.
"You might read some actual history - and learn just how little resistance there was in France, and how much collaboration (they cooperated with the Holocaust cheerfully - enthusiastically, even)."
Just like Ahmed Chalabi and Allawi, you mean?
Let me just say that your comments are unmitigated bullshit.
"If ever there was a genuine hero of the French Resistance against the Germans during World War Two, it was Jean Moulin. His name is commemorated all over France in street names, and he is rightly hailed as the first individual who really united the scattered elements of spontaneous French resistance to the occupying forces. More than anything else, he gave the French people back their honour.
Born the son of a history professor in the French town of Belziers in 1899, Moulin enlisted in the army in 1918 but never saw action. Between the wars he joined the civil service and rose rapidly to become Prefect, or regional administrator, of Chartres.
His politics were of the extreme left, and it was no surprise when, in June 1940, he was arrested by the occupying Gestapo and tortured as a suspected communist. Moulin tried to end his ordeal by cutting his own throat. Fortunately a guard caught him in time to prevent this, and he was rushed to hospital.
By November 1940 the Vichy government ordered all elected left-wing officials to be sacked. Moulin, now recovered, refused to sack anyone and was himself dismissed from his post. From then on he devoted his life to resisting the Germans and their puppets.
In September 1941 he was smuggled to London to meet Charles de Gaulle, leader of the French Resistance, and the other exiled French leaders, but in January 1942 the SOE parachuted him back into France, to set up an organised Resistance movement.
The Gestapo was soon on the track of this charismatic and committed man. By mid-1943 the net was closing on 'Max' (Moulin's cover name), and shortly after setting up the National Council of the Resistance (CNR) in May 1943, he was betrayed by fellow Frenchmen and captured on 21 June in a massive anti-resistance dragnet. He died under Gestapo torture on 8 July 1943, a broken man. Jean Moulin never carried a gun - but he made the Resistance."
Captain America is a flip-flopper. In "the Ultimates" v1:
Bad guy is kicking Cap's ass. "Do you give up, Captain America?"
Cap gets his second wind and starts wailing on him.
"Give up? Give up? What do you think this [points to the letter on his head] stands for? France?"
Did George Will really say the French had never defended Paris? Has he never heard of the Battle of the Marne? In which the French suffered 250,000 casualties and saved Paris from capture by the Germans?
The man ought to be ashamed.
And I heartily recommend Philip Hallie's Lest Innocent Blood Be Shed for a fine account of French resistance to the Holocaust -- not military resistance, but pacifists resisting by saving Jews.
Arnold ... no, Cap is consistent. He loves individuals who fight for their countries and dislikes the cowardice of nations and national governments. He wouldn't accept his 4-F rating. He dislikes "France" for surrending, but dislikes anyone who believes that this action represents the French people.
He's pro-hero and anti-jingo. He believes in what he sees, and distrusts what he hears.
He's Captain America. HOORAY!
Let me recommend Alan Furst's very fine historical novels The World at Night and Red Gold, for those who want to back into the history of France in WWII. And James Robertson, you're a disgrace.
Hey, guys, lay off James Robertson!
Really, expecting any of the brain-washed, nutjob, truth-hating, Limbaugh-loving conservatives to know ANYTHING that isn't spoon-fed by the Lying Conservative Media, it's just expecting WAAY too much.
He probably believes slavery was a good thing.
And the Holocaust didn't happen.
And Ronald Reagan was the bestest preznit ever!
Cap is written by more than one person, as are most of the "legendary" characters these days. So it doesn't surprise me that in one book he's bashing the French and in another he's standing up for them.
In a way that kind of schizophrenic behavior is like a microcosm of America's internal struggles with itself. Kinda funny really.
Well Marcel (or Max, it's the son, not the father) Ophuls;' documentary "The Sorrow and the Pity" from the mid-1970s is a pretty exhaustive study of the myth that large proportions of the French populace actively supported the Resistance. Ophuls preents a good case that most people in occupied territory simply accommodated themselves to the Germans and went about their business.
James Robertson is a SmallTalk god and the author of the RSS aggregator BottomFeeder.
I know that doesn't establish his credentials on French history during the second World War, but still, writing him off as a dittohead (not to mention the other 12 pejoratives) is pretty harsh.
in point of fact, without the help of the French Resistance, Sylvester Stallone, Michael Caine, Pele et al. would never have escaped after they won the soccer match with the German team.
Thank goodness Hatch knew where to stand during the corner kick.
... I mean, c'mon Captain America is - like - fictional and everything, right?
Arnold, as mentioned above, those two comments were written by two different writers but, even so, Cap in The Ultimates is the Ultimate-universe Cap while Cap in the new Captain America series (written by the amazing Ed Brubaker) is the standard universe Cap.
As far as Cap being too old, which was mentioned above, in both universes, he disappeared and was frozen, allowing him to be awoken today and be just as spry as ever. Alright, I know none of you really care very much about comics, but when I read this issue, I thought the scene was very well written and you guys should read all of it, as Cap explains his position ever further.
I would suggest James Robertson look up the history of Louis Terrenoire.
No, I don't know if we're related, but I'm proud to share the name.
You might want to relabel your web site "Small Mind," James Robinson. You would do well to follow your own advice and educate yourself as to the real history of the French during WWII rather than rely on the distortions and lies of Rush, Fox, Coulter, et al.
Moreover, did you actually read the issue of Captain America before commenting or did you, as you mindless yapping apes of the right are wont to do, comment on something while knowing little or nothing about it? I suspect the latter.
BTW, helpful hint: Stan Lee hasn't written Marvel Comics on a regular basis since the 70s. Chalk up another comment based in ignorance.
Since there was nothing in your post that included anything close to a fact, maybe you should stop talking about subjects about which you know nothing and go find something to read. Start with "My Pet Goat" and work your way up.
If you'd like to read the comic for yourself, Mile High Comics has it available online.
Cap's reminiscencing about WWII France begins on page 16.
Anyone wondering what the author of Captain America #3 thinks about Cap's politics should read this interview. Excerpt:
Some writers (such as Englehart and Gruenwald) have protrayed CA as a political liberal, and others much more conservative (such as Jurgens and Kirby), and others don't think his personal politics matter (such as Waid). What are your thoughts?Put in this context, Cap's defense of French bravery makes even more sense.
Steve is his own man. I think he's seen enough of the world in all his years to know that both sides are highly flawed. I see him as more of a progressive (which is both different and better than a liberal) like FDR, because he grew up under the New Deal, but I think he'd agree with the more conservative Eisnehower's warnings about the corporate military industrial complex and its involvement in Government, as well. Like I said, he's his own man. I don't think he's a partisan in any way, though, because then he wouldn't stand for the people of his country, or the truth.
Comments from author Ed Brubaker on this issue:
You know, I was browsing around the net for reaction, and though there wasn't much of it here, on several boards there were a lot of people really bent out of shape about the scene in #3 where Steve tells Sharon about his experiences in France after D-Day. I honestly hadn't expected that, and was a bit shocked. The page on AICN practically turned into some kind of bizarre political rant about France thread. Someone there assumed I was putting my own PC sentiments about France in Cap's mouth, and on another board someone called me a pussy, even.(I found these comments in Google's cache here because the original source got knocked offline by its own popularity.)
It's both sad and funny, really. For one thing, it's funny because I have no political opinion about France, and certainly not about France under Nazi occupation -- my only opinion of France is I like some of their film, art, and comics. But it's sad because I've never seen so many Americans who more than likely have never been to France, have never fought in a war, or lived somewhere that's been invaded by another country, have violent hate towards another country, for really, no reason.
In any case, though, I wasn't putting my views into Steve's mouth, I was writing what felt like an honest portrayal of Cap's experiences in the war. I didn't think anyone who'd fought side by side with the French Resistance, and who'd witnessed, first-hand, the Nazi slaughter of hundreds of innocents because of that resistance, would be like those reactionary right-wing freedom fries morons, most of whom never fought in a war alongside anybody.
Steve Rogers, if anything, is all about bravery, and so of course when he thinks of the French, he's going to think of the brave ones he met who took on tanks with guns and rocks, who helped make the storming of the beach at Normandy a success. He's not going to think about DeGaulle or the Vichy regime, he's going to think of the brave people who stood up for their freedom in the face of it all. That's who he is.
And I don't think he'd like seeing so many Americans who've never been in uniform or in war, call a entire country cowards. Anymore than he'd like seeing most of Europe call the US stupid because of the current regime. Anyone who's been through what Cap has knows the difference between governments and people. And that doesn't mean he's liberal or conservative, that just means he's got a brain.
1) I never said that there wasn't a French resistance; merely that it's size and scope was greatly exaggerated by De Gaulle after the war
2) As to French losses in WWI? Yes, they fought bravely then. Yes, they bled. So did Britain and Germany, to as large an extent. If they had no men to resist in 1940, neither did anyone else.
3) French collaboration is well established; see here, for instance:
4) Rather than attack the messenger (me), do some research and make up your own mind.
"3) French collaboration is well established;"
So is Dutch and Danish collaboration. Neither of those countries even put up a fight before being occupied!
And yet, you single out the French for your hostility. Why?
Oh, right, because they didn't support the war in Iraq. Let's see what the "coalition of the willing" was doing during WWII : Denmark,Netherlands,Poland Italy - hmm all of them had governments that supported Germany, even though they had courageous people who resisted, just like France.
And all of them had majority populations who were AGAINST the Iraq war...JUST LIKE FRANCE!
The French aren't angels (no one is). But nor are they the sneaky cowards that they've been made out to be by right-wing propagandists. Just because they won't kiss your ass and call it ice cream doesn't make them your enemy.
Give 'em back that Statue o' Liberty, I say!
And yet, you single out the French for your hostility. Why? Oh, right, because they didn't support the war in Iraq.
Ding, we have a winner! That's it exactly.
It's like wingnut idiots who say to the British who dare to criticize America "If it wasn't for us, you'd be speaking German". It's probably an urban legend but I read this exchange once, supposedly taking place in an English pub:
Yank: If it wasn't for us etc.
Brit: And if it wasn't for the French during your Revolutionary War, you'd be drinking tea at 4:00 pm every day and playing *real* football, laddie.
Why James, don't pussy out on us now! You were so very self-assured in your first post. I guess when everything you say is proven bullshit within minutes, it's pretty hard to maintain the bravado, eh? Tell you what, Jimmy, leave the conservative lie machine to the professionals. You see to have caught your wang in the gears.
You guys read a lot of assumptions (based on our own biases, not on things I posted).
Denmark and Holland had no armies to speak of - they gave up in the face of imminent destruction. Subsequently, they resisted the Holocaust to a far, far greater extent than France.
France fought, and was mostly betrayed by poor strategic decisions. Once they lost though, collaboration with the Holocaust was very, very thorough. Enthusiastic, even. Heck, even Germany's then partner, Italy, did not cooperate with the roundup of Jews as much as France did.
The French resistance was almost all communist (and extremely small). That doesn't mean that there weren't brave resistance fighter - what it means is that there were very few of them)
French collaboration with the Holocaust is well established, as is the small scale of organized resistance.
As to why I posted? It really doesn't have anything to do with Iraq (which, if you'll read my two posts, didn't come up). The assumptions made about my comment say a lot more about the politics and prejudices of the commenters than they do about me. Why did I focus on France? Well gee, that was the subject of the initial post - it seemed like a natural thing to follow the subject. Those of you throwing rocks might follow my advice from the last post - do your own research and draw your own conclusiona.
"Once they lost though, collaboration with the Holocaust was very, very thorough."
Indeed, that's why there are 6.000 Jews now in Poland, when they were 15% of the pre-war population, and why there are 800.000 in France, the 3rd largest community after US and Israel.
As for the Dutch "heroic resistance against the Holocaust", for what it's worth, it surely didn't save Ann Frank.
Mr. Robertson, perhaps you can explain why Holland lost more of its Jews proportionally than any other European country except for Poland? Proportionally speaking, three times more Dutch Jews died in the Holocaust than French Jews.
Yeah, hate french people because, um....they didn't agree with an illegal war.
Oh by the way, fuckwits, without the french, its very likely the colonies would have lost the revolutionary war.
You would be asking for tea and crumpets if it wasnt for the french.
OK, it looks like I've gotten taken in by the Anne Frank story with respect to Holland - The Danish resistance to the slaughter is the better example.
Comparing what went down in Poland to anything in Western Europe is not a fair comparison - the Nazis treated Poland as a killing ground to be colonized rather than as occupied territory - iirc, 1 in 3 Poles (overall population as of 1939) died during the war - Poland suffered worse than anywhere else - with the possible exception of Russia.
Why does Captain America hate America?
He doesn't, he hates YOU.
YOU are not America. YOU are not Christianity. YOU are not shit.
If I may nerd out for a moment:
Captain America is not a flip-flopper. The panel in question is from the classic Marvel Universe- Cap was unfrozen in the 60's so is pretty hip to modern politics and attitudes.
The Cap' in The Ultimates is a different 'universe' than the main Marvel Universe. Ultimate ap' was only defrosted 2 years ago so he is still clinging to his 40's ways of thinking. His hawkish nature is used as a point of conflict and confusion for him as he struggles to understand a modern world where things are not so good -vs- evil as they seemed to be in WWII.
One could say that the original Captain America embodies a warrior who has learned the hard lessons of war after while the Ultimate Captain America is a hawkish aristotelian struggling to reconcile his absolutism with a world of uncertainties.
As a longtime comic book geek, I thank you, Pedantic Nerdlinger. But why would a newly unfrozen Captain America crack wise about the A on his head standing for France? He'd have more reason to appreciate the bravery of the French people, since it's still recent history for him.
ANY nation who tells that mouthbreathing asshole in the White House to take his illegal war and shove up his ass is OKAY in MY book!
Oh - and have these ignorant Francophobes ever heard of a man called the Marquis de Lafayette?
Oops - forgot! All that fancy book larnin' is jes fer furriners and them thar pointy-headed librul 'litists. Real Murkans don't need that stuff.
Besides, reading and studying makes you THINK - and THINKING is HARD WORK!
God, you're a fucking dumb ass.
Here's the Wikipedia entry on the French Resistance. The bottom line is that an estimated 5 percent of the french population participated, with about 200,000 active members and an estimated 2 million supporters.
Now, if you are a knee-jerk, French-hating Limbaugh-lover who hates liberals more than you care about your country, then you can say "Such a small percentage. What cowards!"
On the other hand, the country was taken over by an overwhelming military force, and the number who resisted was in the minority. That's why it was called the resistance! And 200,000 is a lot of people. The resistance comprised dozens of groups all over the country.
As for making a lot of assumptions about lying conservatives, well, they are lying conservatives and they just don't know any better. I forgive them.
Why do the conservatives hate my country so much?
What I find most enlightening about this whole discussion (if you could call it that) is how little time is devoted to the actual post and how much is devoted to hurling ad hominems and insults at the lone dissenter. James actually admits a small fault with his argument late in the discussion and he's still insulted later. None of the replies to James, including a couple ala Hesiod's which have some substance, are without an insult. I find that quite telling in who I'm likely to side with.
I call 'em as I see 'im, Scotch.
If you don't like being called a liar, don't lie.
If you don't like being called a Repug, don't be repugnant.
If you don't like being ridiculed, don't be so quick to put forward opinions that are so easy to ridicule.
And above all, be a man! This whole "Golly jeepers! You liberals are so mean! I'm gonna cry and go home and tell Mom!" is such a load of crap. What a bunch of sissies! Do you really expect us to believe that you would have sided with the liberal view if we had been so nice and polite and respectful the way the conservatives always behave?
You must think we are as dumb as Bush-voters.
This topic has been pretty much all that's been discussed on some Cap boards I've seen. (I was linked here from www.thismodernworld.com).
Anyway, apperantly the last story arc of Cap (under a different creative team) apperantly had a much more liberal slant. I'm going to pick up the collection (titled HOMELAND) and tell you how that goes.
But, if I can nerd out: the current Captain America creative team is freaking amazing. My roommate isn't even a big comic fan, and he's been snatching up every issue. If Cap is America-hating, I endorse these actions!
I wasn't aware that crying foul at anti-French rhetoric was "anti-American." The American revolution would've failed without the aid of France.
You liberals take all the fun out of France-hating with your lousy liberal facts!
Why do the facts hate America!?
I think you ALL need to chill the f*** out and go get a drink...
This place is starting to look like Fark.
Roger, the Captain America in the Ultimate universe may wear roughly the same costume as the original Marvel Cap, but he's not the same character. At all. While the Marvel Universe Cap is very much a follower of FDR, the Ultimate Cap is written as a somewhat right-wing version. And when the writer (Mark Millar, who's actually Scottish) wrote that issue of The Ultimates, French-bashing was at its height. (It helps that Millar is a somewhat poor writer always looking for an edgy wisecrack).
Anywayâ¦back to the historical backâ"and-forthâ¦
In the superhero universe, Captain America is one of the great non-powered heroes.
Oh, he took the superserum, but wbo ever thinks about that? What stands out is his eagerness to use his abilities to do the right thing and, where there might be a team, to be a team player.
That's my historical back-and-forth.
The real reason so many Americans hate the French is because the French have so much more style. Take a walk around any midwestern city and try not to cringe at what passes for fashion.
1) Indeed, if not for the French there would be no FREE America. We'd all still be colonies under King George. (Hurm...maybe THAT's why the cons don't like the French. They LIKE living as colonies under King George the Dubya!)
2) Weak French resistance? They kept half the country from German control. If the resistance was as weak as some have asserted, Germany would have had everything to the Spanish border.
3) France is cowardly? How does that make US look? In WW1 we waited three years to come help, and in WW2 we waited about FOUR years before coming to help. If America is so comparatively "brave," why did it take so long (TWICE) to get off our duff and join the fight? If anything, the French could just as easily be slinging "coward" insults at America.
And I thought comics were escapist entertainment?
"And I thought comics were escapist entertainment?"
No, you're thinking of drugs.
Gauls? Oh. Yeah, hey! Funny.
So, the French government, which may or may not represent most of the population of France, disagrees with the American government, which definitely does not represent most of the population of the United States, and bunch of head-up-their-asses political "leaders", who are supposed to represent at least those who voted for them, decide that the entire French population should be impugned. Then, we as "concerned citizens" end up discussing what some of the French people may or may not have done over sixty years ago in an attempt to what, prove what all of the French people are like today?
Man, I'll bet there are some French jew-hating, wife-beating, child-molesting assholes that could offend even our most outrageous KKK members. There must also be in France people who are so heartbreakingly noble in every respect that you or I couldn't ever begin to emulate them.
Mr. Robertson, to argue that it's OK to insult an entire population (is that what you are arguing?) because a certain percentage of the French collaborated in WW II, is as pointless as saying that all Americans are now racists because, well, as a nation then, a very large percentage of us were.
There is no "the French", no "the Americans", and for that matter, no "the Jews". Please, let those of us who would like to be regarded as progressives not fall into the us vs. them trap when entire populations are concerned.
what vman said. gospel.
Don't forget the "Captain America" comic's perpetuation of insidious French stereotypes. I refer, of course, to that recurring Cap villain, Batroc ze Leper. (Click on link.)
HEy are you gonna eat those tots?
As Vman put it so well, the initial posts arguement, when clarified, is untenable and
makes it evident how we in America are so willing to percieve others in a hateful way. "ignorance breeds hate" has never been so true, but even worse is when the ignorant are enflamed by just the right propagandist "knowledge".
Thr neocons have perfected a formula of disinformation, a domestic pattern of "shock and awe" with tireless media blitzes, focusing our attention on "facts" that are complete lies.
Iraq was a close to nuclear weapons as the Saints are to a Super Bowl title. The weapons we gave/sold them were all rusty and not very menacing. The dictator we helped to prop up was becoming a relic in his own regime, but his connections to Bin Laden are a thousand ties more vague and unsubstantioated than the Bush family ties.
But it all goes to the point of why did Cappie express his disdain for the way Americans can be led in our views and instructed to hate? Because we all have the responsibility, and duty to ourselves, our families, our nation, and the world et al.; to stand up against true degradation of humanity.
To the thousands and thousands of dead in Iraq, and the thousands of dead and wounded American soldiers, we owe them all the respct and dignity to tell GWB and the warmongers of his regime, and the contractors and weapons dealers to get a new line of work.
IF GE and some other big Corps, would actually do something beneficial to the world, like pioneering new energy sources , then Cap. Amerika could again stand proud, and perhaps I won't keep having those Terminator like dreams where my daughter and wife are consumed by endless warfare.
But anyway WTF, right, American Idol is down to the final 12, all my stocks are doin' good, (Exxon/Mobile, Boeing,).
I find it quite telling that most of the people responding to me can't do so without swearing/yelling. I'll ask the same question a friend of mine used to ask me:
"Are you shouting to convince me, or yourself?"
For the record, I didn't bring up Iraq - not at all. Current events did not make up any part of my point. That also means that no pundits - of the right, left, or center - have any bearing on anything I said. Again, the fact that so many commenters want to tar by association is telling - it's a very, very weak form of argument.
French Collaboration with the Holocaust was downright enthusiastic - even in unoccupied (Vichy) France. Have a look here, for instance:
>>French Collaboration with the Holocaust was downright enthusiastic - even in unoccupied (Vichy) France. Have a look here, for instance>Again, the fact that so many commenters want to tar by association is telling - it's a very, very weak form of argument.
James said :
"French Collaboration with the Holocaust was downright enthusiastic - even in unoccupied (Vichy) France. Have a look here, for instance"
And I suppose *that* perfectly validates your initial post, in which you were basically saying that :
'Captain America does not like to hear his own people dismissing the French as cowards' equals 'Captain America hates America'.
Thank you, James. I've learned something today. Now I know that refusing to give up to hasty generalizations equals hating America (as in "*all* the French were collaborators"). Man, I've been hating America for years and did not even know it.
James said :
"Again, the fact that so many commenters want to tar by association is telling - it's a very, very weak form of argument."
And you should know!
JW: Please point to where I said anything remotely like this:
'Captain America does not like to hear his own people dismissing the French as cowards' equals 'Captain America hates America'.
All I said was that French Collaboration with the Nazis was enthusiastic - especially so with respect to roundups of French Jews. I don't think I said anything at all about the French being cowards - I was pointing to something else entirely.
Yet again, someone in the thread has decided to manufacture a strawman and throw it at me.
Plus ce change, plus ce mÃªme chose.
OK, I'll admit it : I confused James Robertson and Rogers Cadenhead. I'm not familiar with that website, and given your enthusiastic response to people who disliked Rogers' original post, I just fused the two of you in a blurry anti-French rampaging creature.
You know, for us evil French Froggies, you French-Bashers tend to look the same. Hey, I take back what I said about hasty generalizations : don't knock it till you try it, folks !
PS : All second-degree bad taste humour aside... One of the reasons we Frenchies are a bit touchy on the whole "The French are cowardly bastards" and/or "you cheese-eating spineless worms betrayed the Jews" thing is that IT HAPPENED 45 YEARS AGO. We're a bit fed up with that, being judged for something that happened when we weren't born, and sometimes our parents weren't even born. Now if you wanna talk about Gulf War II (but I understand you didn't want to bring that subject up), be my guest.
Oh, and : leave us alone with the whole Jerry Lewis bit, too. We don't care that much. Our youth don't even know who he is. We're just wondering why so many people in the US think he sucks that much when not so long ago Jim Carrey was the best paid actor in history.
Are you fucking retarded? He doesn't hate America, he just dislikes how American's complained about the french giving no resistance, which they did. We're just terribly uninformed. It's hillarious how anyone can even talk shit about France when they're sitting at their computer, without the slightest idea of what war is actually like.
the french were Nazi sympathizers, they only ones to resist were the ones who were being persecuted, look back at the Drefus Affair, look back at the change in French law, not german law, the jews and the communists resited the Nazis, but vicci government supported, aided and manned the construction of french concentration and death camps. As for CAp, he doesnt know what hes talking about, which is funny for someone who was there, you can blame this on the liberal wrighters who dont take the time to learn about the event on which they are writing
thank you for erasing a french point of view, my one...sure u didn't need it. Or maybe it was a repetition of another post...
But I cant let a web site finished by " french were nazi sympathisers", lokk like revisionism to me
You disgust me, liars, I love you , the others
ah, les amricains....
How about not letting your prejudices dictate how you feel towards someone you have never met? It's really easy to sit behind a computer screen, and throw insults out. As far as the whole George Bush Presidency, hey I am an independent, and I don't vote for the President, and will not vote because of the Electoral College, now if that isn't a waste of tax payers money, I don't know what is.It is not like your popular vote really counts. Still I love America, faults and all. Don't we all live under the same sun, moon, and stars? When we are cut, do we not bleed? French, Americans, Sovits, Russian, Arab, Chinese, Asian, are you going to let those "labels" define you?
Here are three selected qoutes from someone infinatly smarter than myself;
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices
acquired by age eighteen."
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity,
and I'm not sure about the former."
"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
Besides, wasn't this origanlly about Captain America, a fictional comic book character? Lighten up everyone.
"With enough faith,hope,love,and time,
all things become possible"
Cap says that he is galled by Americans who dismiss the French as cowards, and you translate that into "Cap hates America".
Wake up and smell the maple nut crunch pal, this tendency of obvious right-wingers to attack and discredit those they don't agree with before engaging them in an actual debate (involving such uncouth and uncomfortable things as such as actual facts and ideas, which you tend to lack) contributes to a political discourse that is quite literally a house of cards.
As for anyone who is willing to use the paper that retards like Anne Coulter write on as anything other than toilet paper, you are living proof that ignorance breeds ignorance... especially when right and wrong and especially unpleasant things such as THE TRUTH cease to matter.
To be utterly frank with you, not only does Cap NOT hate America, but he represents everything that has ever made America great. You, on the other hand, represent nothing more (and nothing less) that is wrong with the country that has the potential to be -- and traditionally has been -- one of the greatest countries on Earth (and tragically, has ceased to be such).
The rest of the world is waiting for Americans to smarten up and take back what is rightfully theirs. What will you be doing?
Cap says that he is galled by Americans who dismiss the French as cowards, and you translate that into "Cap hates America".
The "hates America" references are a long-running joke on liberal blogs, Patrick. A play on the fact that we're accused of treason every time we oppose anything favored by Bush and the neocons.
hello for all.
You think captain america exist really ,
it's not him who say this sentence.
Here We have much dead by WW1 and WW2
Only the people who have a life during this time can understand , how feel population. We had people who denounce somtimes for save their life. And another who denounce without think for money. But people of france , much are dead For the country for a word you say "libert , freedom" For all people dead in this War ! French , american , english , deutsh ... it's a very sad word. i dont think then american guy who are dead in Normandie like this comment in comics if they were alive.
These man who are dead for save our liberty , i say it's was great men's and all french can say that.
But resistance during this time have existed. And like we can see in another comics when Cap is in Paris :
Gouvernement had give up but not population.
And Degaule go in england for purchase resistance.
History by comics and history by real book are different's thing ...
All men's who are dead are not fight for this sentence.
In france we dont want war ...or really in last time if we dont have choice because much people are die in last WW.
So much of dead for more of 100 years.
I dont speak of war in irak or another topic by respect for you soldiers inside this country .
in 1940 it's was gun agaisnt ... nothing ! Resistance was not soldier's any training before , a normal people.
without them , i will not alive now , my parent's too .
sorry for my poor english